Matt 0:00

Morning everyone. This is the Adjusting the Mic podcast. And today I'm joined by Dr Ben Bruce from the beautiful Wairarapa. How are you going, Ben?

Ben 0:09

Yeah, I'm going great, Matt. I'm really going good. Excited to talk to you today. I listen to podcasts all the time. And this is my first time on one, so it's cool.

Matt 0:17

Well, hopefully we keep the standard high for you. Usually we start this by just letting you introduce yourself to the profession. Just tell us a little bit of your journey from chiropractic college and then into practice.

Ben 0:28

Yeah, cool. Okay, so it's weird to think that I've been in practice, I think this is my 18th year in practice, which is so weird to say that because it means that I'm getting old, you know? Like one of those old chiropractors. When I left chiropractic college, I joined Alan Wade and Geoff Alley over at Bayes Chiropractic. And so I was with them for about three years. Signed up for a two-year associate position. I was there for three years, and then I saw a a sort of a little bit of a gap in the market up in Walkworth. So my dad was living up in Walkworth. There was really only one chiropractor up there. So within my contract, it was all good for me to look at practicing elsewhere as well. So I just set up a little branch practice up in Walkworth and I did that for probably a year and a half. And then I sort of thought, you know, I'm pretty comfortable to do my own thing now. So then I moved out on my own down in the North Shore as well. So I sort of went between Walkworth and Albany and I did that for about another five years after that. So I was in practising all up in Auckland and Walkworth for about eight years in total. Okay. And then Mon, my wife, and I got married up in Matakana had a whole bunch of family from the Wairarapa come up to our wedding and sort of said, Oh, when are you gonna move down and look after us? And I sort of said, Well, probably never. But then and they sort of said, Well, the chiropractor is looking to retire down here and he wants to have a chat with you. And I thought, oh, I'd probably be rude not to at least give him a phone call. So I phoned this is Terry Field, who had been here for a long time. And basically, yeah, when he sort of let me know what the opportunity was and it was almost too good to be true. So Mon and I flew down to kind of meet him and his wife and have a look around the practice. And while we were there, we sort of did a handshake on the spot really and said, Yeah, we'll take it. So then we went back to Auckland and we had to just relocate our life, really. We sold our practice to Sarah Lustim, who was our associate at the time. So she took over and we sold the Walkworth branch to Tom Vaughan. And then we packed up all of our worldly possessions into two cars and then made the one-way journey back home to the Wairarapa, and something I didn't really think I'd ever do, but actually it's been so awesome. And just the other week we celebrated our 10-year anniversary of taking over that practice.

Matt 2:38

Fantastic, a big milestone.

Ben 2:40

Yeah, huge, really. And when Mon and I first took over, it was just a one chiro, one CA practice. So we sort of thought, oh well, we'll just come down here and just take over this sleepy old practice and just have a bit of a cruisy lifestyle down here. But then the public had other ideas because you know, you come in with new blood and new ideas and a new philosophy, and everyone kind of wanted a piece of it, really. So we got busy pretty quickly. And we were kind of run off our feet, really. And then one day Grace Southey walked in and she said, Hey guys, if you're looking for a new job, she enjoyed the vibe here, and so quite quickly she became our first CA that we hired, and then she worked out to practice manager, and then obviously the rest is history. She fell in love with chiropractic and moved to Auckland, and she's actually just done her first year in practice with us down here. So yeah, we've taken it from a one chiro, one CA practice. We've got four chiros and four CAs now. And yeah, she goes pretty well down here, so it's been a journey, but it was a really cool milestone to celebrate that 10-year anniversary with the patients and with the team. So yeah, it's cool.

Matt 3:44

So 10 years is no mean feat for any business, and a lot of businesses don't get to that 10-year milestone. What do you attribute your success to lasting this long?

Ben 3:54

Well, I suppose we took over a really good practice. So Terry, who's unfortunately passed away now, but he had a good name, he had a good business, he'd been here for 30 years. So we saw the opportunity to take over a pre-existing practice and also to get the blessing of the old owner as we transitioned in. So we came and did a two-week handover, and so we got onside with the patients and they knew that we were there and that it was a local boy coming home. So that was a really good start for us. And I suppose we all just love what we do here, as you know, the majority of chiropractors do, and it shows in how we show up and how we speak and how we look after our patients. So yeah, we've just been really blessed here. We've had a really strong word of mouth for the last 10 years. We haven't really had to do a lot of screenings and advertising and stuff. Like we just show up, love the patients, and they go and tell their friends and family. And that's probably it. Like we've had just a pretty consistent flow of referrals coming through. Also, I just think moving down to an area where there wasn't a whole lot of competition here. So I know that there are other pockets of New Zealand that are really saturated.

Matt 4:56

Yeah. Well, you practiced this on the shore.

Ben 4:58

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, the shore, you know, and obviously like Nelson, Hawkes Bay, and you know, other areas, Tauranga and that. So it's gonna be harder to get yourself out there. So, you know, when you're considering where you want to put your flag, you've got to really do some due diligence on all those things too. But yeah, for us it's 10 years and we're looking forward to the next 10. So we've been really blessed, but it was come from strategic decision making coming down at the right time and seeing the opportunity when it was presented to us 10 years ago.

Matt 5:25

Fantastic. Now, oftentimes there can be some trials and tribulations taking over a practice that belonged to someone else, maybe their practice style or the way that they educated their patients. How did you manage that transition from going from your own style of chiropractic into their style and maintaining as much of the patient base as you can?

Ben 5:42

Yeah, so it was interesting because Terry had gone to quite an activator way of practicing. So he had two rotator calf shoulder surgeries, which had meant that he wasn't able to practice manually that much anymore. So he basically transitioned his practice to an activator practice. And I'd used obviously a little bit of activator up in Auckland, but I was quite a strong manual adjuster, and that's kind of what I hung my hat on. And so I was definitely really nervous about that. I was thinking, how am I gonna go and transition all these people off activator back to manual care again, you know? That was kind of my knee-jerk reaction thought, but I thought, well, I've got to keep an open mind here if I want this to work and just drag my wife away from Auckland to Masterton of all places, so it needs to work. So I was really just kind of came with an open mind, and I sort of did this two-week transition with Terry. And I have to say, some of the things that I saw in that two weeks when he was practicing and I was quickly writing notes and getting a flow of the practice was pretty unbelievable. So that really opened my eyes, well, and opened my mind to practicing in a slightly different way. And then when I took over, there was the technique side of things. Also, Terry was pretty much, if it ain't broke, don't fix it type of chiropractor, which is totally fine. So the maintenance thing wasn't really his bounce. So it was interesting because when we were doing that two-week transition, people would come in and I'm like, okay, because we've just bought this practice, right? So and people would come in and they'd say, and I'd say, Oh, I'm feeling so much better. When should I come in again? And said, Oh, you know, do you just give us a call? And I'm like, dude, I just bought that patient. You know, that's yeah. But I just shut my mouth and just be respectful, and I just knew that we had a bit of work ahead of ourselves. So basically, I really embraced his modified activator technique to begin with, and it felt so foreign to me, and I was really out of my comfort zone. But I thought I've got to just do this strategically. So it almost reminded me about being back at chiropractic college when you're just learning how to do these things and you're like, just fake it till you make it, you know. But actually, even though I was kind of in that fake it till you make it, like I'm just gonna roll with this, amazing things were happening, just as amazing as if I was manually adjusting these people. So I sort of it was a real eye-opener to me. And so as the weeks went by and my confidence in doing this kind of predominantly modified activator technique, it was beautiful. It was awesome. And I thought, okay, this is cool. So I've brought in a lot more manual techniques to complement the activator style that we do here now. And it's a beautiful blend of both. And because we have a lot of the older population here that come through in their 70s, 80s, and 90s. It works so well for them, just a lower force on their bodies and for their nervous systems to accept that input. And it's cool, man. And I've now gone on to teach that sort of technique to numerous associates that we've had through here. I think some of them are still using it, even though they've they've left us years ago, they still use it. So I think it just pays to keep open-minded and not like it has to be this way or it has to be this way. Because, you know, at the end of the day, as we know, it comes down to the intent behind the adjustment.

Matt 8:47

You got it.

Ben 8:48

So that was that. And then also just that whole thought of like, how am I going to get these people to realise that there's more to chiropractic than just symptomatic relief, you know? But I mean, luckily I've been in practice a few years already. So I basically whacked up a road to recovery poster and I just started telling the story. And not making Terry, the previous chiropractor, wrong at all. I had to meet people where they were at and say, hey, I know you've done it like this, and we can totally keep doing that. I just needed to let you know there is another way, though. There's another branch of what we do, which is all around wellness and preventative maintenance, even maintenance, or you know, just picking my audience of what words I use to frame that. And you know, your body can be a whole lot better when it gets adjusted more regularly, other than just coming in when you're broken down. How does that sound? And like obviously a lot of people were really like, oh, that's cool. Um, yeah, that sounds really good. It's like, cool, well, why don't we give that a go? And obviously people got hooked, you know. And that's where we had this exponential growth. But yeah, it was huge. And in the end, it was so big that Mon and I were doing 12 to 14 hour days of straight chiropractic. Like we would turn up at seven in the morning, and sometimes we wouldn't leave till seven at night, eight at night. And I remember like the phone ringing and Mon being like, Yeah, okay, yeah, we can put you in as a new patient. It's gonna be 8 p.m. or whatever it was, but we just did what we had to do, man. Yeah, and it was exponential growth, which is where we had that confidence to then look to have the money to expand the practice to actually put some extra rooms on and then have the confidence to get to reach out to the profession and say, hey, who wants to join us down here? It was interesting because I tried to, my old classmate Jo Twiggins, like I sort of put it out to her, like luring her with like Trade Me listings of what your money could buy you in terms of property and here. And um, she was keen, but she wasn't quite ready just yet. But we needed someone. Our first associate down here was David Bushell. So Paul, his younger brother, he came over from Australia, and then basically, like two days after he signed the contract, Jo was like, Ben, I'm ready to move down. And I'd like, okay. And then Mon was like freaking out, and I said, Jo, come, come down. I can see the potential here. We will make this work, and it surely did work.

Matt 10:59

So, how did you manage that transition from solo practitioner who's just obviously taken over a practice and is building it on their own to integrating new associates? Obviously, you had an influx of patients, you had a lot of people, you had 12-hour days, that's big, a lot of chiropractic new grads are thinking, 12 hours, I did this for a lifestyle, but obviously you've got to make hay while the sun shines. How did you manage a transition from solo to having associates?

Ben 11:22

Pretty well, I think, because David had already been in practice for, I think it was maybe a year or two over in Aussie. So he came in and just having people that were kind of open to learning our systems, but also obviously Jo and I studied together. So we'd locum for each other up in Auckland. So it was pretty seamless to be honest. And I'm really lucky that Mon my wife is also our practice manager, so she kind of runs the front side of things and the admin and keeps the thing going so that we can just be in our rooms just loving our patients and doing what we do. So yeah, it just kind of worked. Hey, it just kind of worked, you know. So there was quite a lot of training that happened in the background as well, as there still is, and there has been with other associates that have come and gone. But yeah, I suppose we were really fortunate that we had more patients than almost we knew what to do with. So we weren't scrambling around trying to kind of find, you know, oh, who gets this new patient, who gets that new patient.

Matt 12:13

And again, that's one of those things. You have that benefit of being in a region. And one of the things that chiropractors do struggle with is that whole overflow. So they're just a new associate and you get all the overflow. And sometimes that overflow doesn't amount to very much. And that can be a struggle if you're both picking over the same carcass, basically. Not great. That's fantastic. But the other thing I would say is probably around your practices integrating people in and acknowledging that it's not about that chiropractor, it's about chiropractic. Has that helped you in any way, like with leave and taking time out, etc.?

Ben 12:49

Yeah, oh look, absolutely. Like we're pretty open and free with how you want to practice here. We obviously have some things that need to kind of stay consistent across the board, but people are generally able to practice however they want to practice. And it has meant that I mean the beauty of having multiple associates is that we really encourage our associates to take time out to have holidays, and we just cover each other. You know, if anyone has something come up last minute or they're unwell, it's like the machine just kicks into gear. The CAs just know to call the patients and say, hey, Ben's not available today, but we're gonna pop you in with, you know, Jo or Isaac or Grace or whatever. And it just works really well. I do kind of feel for some of the solo practitioners out there, it's like you're kind of pretty hamstrung if you want to take time off to organise a locum, you know, that can be quite challenging. And then otherwise you just shut the door, and then you kind of feel that obligation to your patients. And so, yeah, we're all sort of pretty much of the same philosophy here, all having studied at NZCC. So that's really helpful as well. So it's pretty seamless, you know. If someone's got to go and see someone else, yeah, it just works well.

Matt 13:51

Perfect. Now you said you had four associates at the moment, and you have four CAs as well. How do you find managing such a big team? And obviously, you have Mon there to help. Eight individual employees, really, and then including yourself.

Ben 14:06

Again, I'm very fortunate because that's Mon's passion. You know, she came from a management background before I met her. She was already sort of high up in that field. So she's brought that expertise to our practice. So we have regular meetings. Mon sits down and has one-on-ones with our team, on a regular basis, just to kind of see where everyone's at, if there's anything that needs to be addressed, it's not letting molehills become mountains or whatever. And I think that is one of the challenges in this profession, is like it's the whole e-myth thing, you know. So you're a great chiropractor, so you think you're gonna be a great boss, and then you go, right, okay, I'm gonna start hiring some people. And a lot of us don't really have that skill set downpacked, and me included. I'm just really blessed that Mon does all of that. I suppose that's the case for really kind of having a practice manager, like hiring someone who that is their skill set to kind of look after, make sure everyone's heard and seen, and you're all work seamlessly, because when we're busy in our offices, just seeing our patients for however many hours a day we're doing that, like we don't know what's going on out in the front desk. We perceive that we're too busy or stressed to check in with our CAs and our other associates, then that's where you know resentments can build and unmet expectations can start to happen, and that's where the wheels can really fall off. So I'm super fortunate that Mon is that's her thing because like all of our associates have basically come for long periods of time, you know, like after their two-year contract they've stayed on for two, three, four years, Gus has left us to move over the hill. He was with us for five years, you know?

Matt 15:34

Yeah, it's one of those things. It's the hardest part with this, and you touched on it really well, that the e-myth for anyone who's listening, hasn't looked at that book, amazing book, and how we transition from a technician into like a practice owner. That's probably the biggest issue that we do have. It's you may be very technically gifted, but there are some weak spots, some blind spots that you don't even know about. Some of those we learn on the way, and that's something I'm sure you've experienced, some challenges over the times. And I would say for most chiros listening, reach out. There's people that can help you with that, and there's people who've gone through it before. I always ask in your practice life, have you been involved in any mentoring, either professional or as in your paid for it, or any mentors that you've reached out to to get advice from?

Ben 16:17

Over the years, like I have had some paid mentorship, but also like I think that it's good to be well connected in the profession, and that even starts from when you're a student, just making sure you get along to things like Lyceum and philosophy nights, and you get in what you put out, and there's some students who just don't put anything in and they just do the bare minimum, they just turn up to class. But then when it comes time to actually like getting a job, people are like, Who who are you? I've never seen you before. Whereas if you're showing up, then they're gonna be like, Oh, you know, that person's a he's a good guy or a good girl, you know. So I've got a lot of contacts in the profession that I call on quite regularly. So if we've got something coming up or I want some advice on something, I know I can just pick up the phone and call whoever who might be in a similar multi-chiro practice and just run scenarios and stuff. So there's a lot to be said for that. So you don't always necessarily have to pay for that advice, but you have to have earned the right to be able to pick up the phone and ring. And that starts from your set phrase, your net worth equals your network, you know? I'm a big believer in that.

Matt 17:17

Perfect. And again, that whole thing reaching out and connecting with the profession, being a solo practitioner, there can be for some a fear that, you know, it's us against the world. I think actually we're stronger together as a chiropractic profession if we're reaching out, connecting, being part of our community groups where there might only be two or three chiros, but if you meet regularly, you've got the ability to refer, you've got the ability just to bounce ideas. So yeah, we're not in competition, that co-opetition is probably the best way to put it. So next thing we always talk about a few little clinical pearls and those sort of things for our listeners. If you were to think back on some of the advice you have been given over the years, what would be that one piece of advice that you often come back to that you're like, man, I'm so glad Alan Wade told me about this or something like that?

Ben 18:03

Oh, that's quite a big question, eh? I suppose one thing, even thinking back to college in our philosophy classes, I always remember Phil McMaster saying, Don't worry about the money if you look after patients, then that'll come in bags or afterwards or something like that. It's just like love the patients and the money will just be a byproduct, you know? And I that's always kind of stuck with me because we should be patient focused, right? And we just do what we do, and then the financial side of things will be a byproduct of services rendered. You know what I mean? That was always a really good one. I mean, one thing that that Terry, the previous owner of here, told me that I've always remembered is like people don't like to be told what to do. But if you say to them, hey, have you considered? Have you considered these suggestions, and then just leave it with them? Because chances are they'll go away and they'll consider it because you planted the seed. And then maybe just in your notes, just write write a little note, hey, uh planted this seed. Did they follow up on that? So then the next time you say, Hey, did you have a think about that or whatever? And then if they did, then really celebrate that with it.

Matt 19:05

It's that old phrase, the truth is self-evident, right? You start putting it out there that this is a better way to do things, of course, people are going to opt for it. And if they don't, it's one of those times when you're saying the message, speaking the message, it might take seven times and all of a sudden they go, Hey, you know that wellness chiropractic you were talking about? Yeah, can I give that a go? Again, not making them wrong means that they've got that ability to come back and actually investigate.

Ben 19:28

Yeah, that's the day is just leaving the door open. Because inevitably people are gonna drop off, life is gonna get busy, and if they feel like they're gonna be told off or scolded or they've got to come in with their tail between their legs, they're not gonna want to do that. Or they're gonna wait till they are absolutely ambulanced at the bottom of the cliff and they've got no other option, or they'll just go somewhere else. But if you can just be a partner in their care. We really try to get away from that doctor-patient feel here that we are just on the journey with them and supporting them whatever their decision is. And you know, so when it gets to their progress report, just be like, hey, these are the options moving forward. You can let me know what feels right for you. And then if then though, you're giving them the space to say, look, those wellness visits sound really good, but we're just in a bit of a bind at the moment, or where you go, that's totally cool. You know, we're a phone call away, you know where we are, and then that just kind of takes the whole pressure off them so that they will come back when they're ready and they'll feel really okay about that. So, yeah, it's just some things offhand. The other thing I would really kind of recommend, as much as it's really important to have a great technique and go to technique seminars and hone your manual skills, the communication side of it is just as important. Like you can be the best technical manual adjuster, but if you can't communicate chiropractic in a way that really resonates with people, you're gonna struggle. So I've put so many hours into communication, particularly like the Martin Harvey stuff. I really enjoy the Martin Harvey stuff. I've spent a fair bit of coin on his hibretention recipe and the matrix and you know managing difficult situations, you know, the blocks that he has, because they're just so, so great meeting people where they're at and using this the Chaldini, like the psychology of persuasion and really cool ethical ways to communicate chiropractic in a way that will can change people's thinking around it. We need to be better communicators. And so even I knew that even when I was at chiropractic college studying, I joined uh and into my career years of practice, like I joined a Toastmasters Club, so that I could really kind of get better at standing up and doing talks and stuff. And I still get nervous about that, but now I also look at it as an exciting opportunity to share what we do.

Matt 21:34

Yeah, perfect. Again, with our sort of newer grads coming through, some of them are in that very much generation Z, generation Y, and it's all online, it's all about the Instagram posts. The ability to communicate can be quite a challenge. What would you say to someone who's like, Well, I'm a new grad, I'm nervous about public speaking. What could I do? Now you joined Toastmasters. Is there other things that you would say?

Ben 21:57

Yeah, so Toastmasters was a good one. Joining BNI, Business Networking International. When we were in our last year of college, we had a BNI representative come into our business class. And so I straight away joined that too. And I did that for three years. And we also have a BNI chapter down here that one of our chiros goes to, because it's just a good opportunity to get up in a sort of an informal setting for like 60 seconds each week over breakfast to talk with other business owners. And like that's just a good thing to do. And it's a good thing to be able to practice. And like anything, if we practice it, it gets better. Same with adjusting, same with just you know communicating. But it is a skill that if we really want to have an impact in our community, it's a good skill to have downpacked. The other tip that I'd say is we always talk to our chiros about this. Like the phone is your friend. The phone is your friend. So do your first patient calls. So basically, when you adjust someone, one of our systems is like if they're acute and they're coming in the next day, then you might call them at the end of the shift. Like put a little note in as a reminder, post-it note or on your appointment book. Call Jenny, you know, and just check in and just say, Hey Jenny, it's been your chiropractor here. I'm just about to leave for the day. I just wanted to see how you were after that adjustment. And that just speaks volumes, you know, for how much you care and that you're going above and beyond. It's one of the biggest practice building tips I can recommend is just that phone, the phone is your friend, you know, the next day, preferably around lunchtime, they might be with people having lunch and their phone goes and it's an unknown number, like, oh, I better get this. And then it's their chiropractor ringing to check in to see, how are you? Did you have any questions? And you can say, Hey, I'm in between patients. I just wanted to give you a quick call. So it's not gonna be a long call. You've already set the framework for that, but really it does go a long way. And I just think that probably not enough people are actually doing that. And that's a way to practice talking, you know, being on the phone, and then it might lead to actually getting a bit more confident with maybe some in-person stuff. But yeah, like we should be on that phone, eh?

Matt 23:54

Totally. And again, it's something so rare now. It's very rare that someone will get a phone call from their health provider to say, hey, just touching base to see how you're doing. And we are high touch in that. We are connection with our people. And I think that's underestimated. Again, you're right, you might be the most technically gifted chiro, but if you're not showing that you care, people don't care. They won't be back.

Ben 24:16

People they want to know how much you care before they care how much you know. It's a really good phrase. And the other thing is, this is what you learn from BNI is people want to do business with people that they know they like and they trust. So, like when you meet people, there's a high likelihood that they've got stuff going on that you could help them with, but they're not gonna actually share that with you until they know, like, and trust you. So that's where working on your communication, watching podcasts about building connection and just working on that skill and honing that skill. Because as soon as they trust you, they're gonna go, Oh, hey, by the way, uh, I've got this little thing going on. Do you think that you can help me? And then you can say, Well, I'll tell you what, let's book you an appointment and let's see, let's see what's going on.

Matt 24:55

Awesome. Now, one thing to finish us up for today, you I've been in practice for 10 years now, and 10 years is a quite a big mark for a lot of chiropractic practices. Now, you have the benefit, it looks like you're going, you're still going strong, but there are a lot of practices out there that maybe are reaching this mark, maybe put on either cruise control or they're like, Yeah, I've been around the profession for a while and I'm feeling a little bit jaded. What advice would you give those chiropractors? Because we need more chiropractors, not less chiropractors in the profession. If they are thinking, uh, what do I do here? Maybe I'm getting into crypto or property or some other focus. So the chiropractic focus is gone. What would you say to them to say, hey, this is the chiropractic profession, what can I do?

Ben 25:36

Yeah, like it's nothing wrong with um spreading your eggs. But also, yeah, if you're reaching that point, you probably want to actually get off your ass and go to a seminar, go to Lyceum, go and mix and mingle, get yourself fizzed up again, or take some time out and go and observe a colleague who is high energy and someone that you aspire to be like. You know, I remember Alan Wade saying that because he was cranking back in the day, and but he would had a ceiling of where he was at. So I remember him saying, like, you know, I took however long it was a couple of weeks or a month off, and I just went and sat with some of the pioneers and watched them practice, and it just lifted that ceiling that he had. His practice exploded after that. So if it's just that you just need to go and actually observe someone, take a holiday, have a break, don't let yourself get burnt out, and just go and spend some time with some people that you're aspiring to be like. Because, man, we're in the greatest profession in the world, you know, that we get to put our hands on people, change their nervous system so they can be better versions of themselves, and we get paid to do it. Like, how good is that, you know?

Matt 26:35

Amazing.

Ben 26:36

Yeah, it is amazing. And it's like even almost coming into 20 years in practice, I'm more in love with chiropractic now, particularly with doing a deep dive with Heidi's stuff. Like, that's the thing. I did her gold course a couple of years ago, and that really for me was a game changer in my understanding of what we're actually doing. So now, even now, I've got like the brain model that sits on my desk, and I talk about it just about all day, every day. I point to a prefrontal cortex poster here, and I talk about cutting-edge neuroscience and that chiropractors are at the front foot of this, and like how good is this. So that really jazzed me up quite a bit. And so, yeah, so I'm still loving what we do here. So, people, if you need a break, man, just take a break. Whether it's going on holiday to recharge your batteries, or whether it's going to observe some colleagues that you really vibe with, or practice dials that you vibe with, or just getting yourself to Lyceum if you're on the fence, like just get there and actually just go and mix and mingle and have a beer with your mates and just like have a chance to connect.

Matt 27:37

Perfect. Well, Ben, thank you so much for joining us today on the podcast. And we might have to have a second podcast with the all the information you've given us. Fantastic. Any last words that you have for the profession?

Ben 27:48

I don't know, man. Just like keep getting out there and doing it, guys, because you know, like this is a profession that's changing the world, and like we should be really grateful that we're in this, that we're getting to do this every day. And if we're not, then we should probably take some time out to think about why that is and what needs to happen to reignite that fire in our bellies or that passion because it's a very special thing that we get to do here and we shouldn't take it lightly, you know? Getting out there and changing the world one spine at a time, right?

Matt 28:13

Perfect. Thank you, Ben. Thanks for joining us today.

Ben 28:16

It's all good. Thanks, Matt.